[CLASSIC] JANUARY 2017 RULES / BANLIST UPDATE
Changes:
No changes.
For this update, we have chosen to not make any changes to the format. The format is still adapting to the 20 life total change that was officially instituted in the last update. This update happened at the same time as powerful and popular new Commanders from Commander 2016 were released in addition to the new “Partner” mechanic.
We feel that none of these new Commanders warrant being banned at the current time but we will continue to keep an eye on their performance going forward. Regarding unbans, we still need to watch on the newly developing metagame before choosing to unban more potentially dangerous and powerful cards. We would like to foresee as much as possible that unbans will only create new possibilities for decks without creating format-dominating decks from just one card.
Don’t forget to check out our Current Lists for a recap of all the currently banned cards.
This update applies on January 20, 2016. The next announcements will be published on April 24, 2017 (applying on April 28-, 2017).
Until then, we wish you all many good games! 🙂
44 Responses so far
Tyneic
janvier 16th, 2017
We feel that none of these new Commanders warrant being banned at the current time
I’m not sure if you guys are serious.
What is going on with you? Are all of you playing Vial Smasher and want to jerk in some quick tournament wins before banning him? Vial Smasher is stronger than Zur in the 20hp metagame and has dominated EVERY tournament since release (leave those with custom banlists).
I’m sorry but either you guys are just really lazy or you are actually trying to ruin Duel Commander on purpose, but whatever you’ve been doing in the past 6 months, it’s been nothing but awful.
I used to love this format. I used to enjoy it, even brewed a few new decks with 20hp, but now it is time to build a Vial Smasher counter and grind it, because that’s everything that’s going to be played in the next two months.
I am honestly disappointed in you guys. You’ve had something great and you decided to ruin it, out of fear of making rash decisions or out of laziness. I don’t know which one it is, but you failed.
I hope you’ll learn from your mistakes.
Bendoq
janvier 16th, 2017
Leaving Vial Smasher in the format is insanity. The deck warps the entire meta and is BY FAR the strongest, in any incarnation. It races aggro and combo, it crushes control, it can kill on turn 4 with counterspell backup and it uses the most degenerate cards available in the format all under one roof.
But hey, it’s your format. You do you.
Igor Medeiros
janvier 16th, 2017
have you played with Vial smasher and any partner? That guy can’t be on duels. It’s too strong.
Ben
janvier 16th, 2017
Les mecs vous déconnez complètement à ne pas -au moins- bannir Vial Smasher. Je comprends que vous ne vouliez pas faire trop de changement après les précédents bans/unbans, mais là franchement vous auriez mieux fait d’écouter les joueurs.
Horta
janvier 16th, 2017
Not banning Vial Smasher is a clear sign of not batting an eye at every single result everywhere. The card is utterly stupid and even the whole partner mechanic kind of warps the format a bit because it forces you to play one of the partner commanders, since you’re literally a card up against someone who isn’t playing it. This is the first time I’m actually disappointed in a DC banlist announcement.
Xalozonasch
janvier 16th, 2017
unban Marath… thats all i ask for! You can leave Vialsmasher in the meta.
Spencer
janvier 17th, 2017
Vial Smasher is strong, but the Partner mechanic I feel is the real culprit here. Control strategies (without Partner) are basically unplayable because single-target removal and counterspells are awful versus a deck that has access to two consistent threats.
I feel like the Rules Committee made no ban announcement simply because Vial Smasher is a Red/Black Commander — previously, it was mentioned that Red/Black had the worst representations in terms of colours in the format.
I think the Partner mechanic is simply too detrimental. Vial Smasher is fine as a commander, but when paired with Blue counterspells (especially « free » spells like Force of Will and Misdirection), the deck is simply too good at landing a threat and then protecting it with counterspell back up (which non-blue aggro decks have traditionally struggled with).
Don’t ban Vial Smasher, just ban the Partner mechanic outright. Before CMD 2016, the format was the healthiest it’s ever been — now it’s dominated by a few decks.
Leo_Grand_Arbiter
janvier 17th, 2017
Tasigur survived 3 ban list, Yisan also. We can’t expect a quick ban from them. I meant Vial Smasher
Chains
janvier 17th, 2017
Just ban Vial Smasher as a partner and leave him alone as a BR commander alternative.
AG
janvier 17th, 2017
This card. It ruins multiplayer. And furthermore ruins games especially if the player who played this is playing mono black.
Xcver
janvier 17th, 2017
I have to chime in here. Looking at the results on mtgtop8 Dot com look like 50% of the meta is vial smasher/kraum or at least vial smasher. The Format is super unhealthy right now imho.
I unterstand that vial smasher is black /Red but it is never played in a pure B/r Red deck….
Cainsson
janvier 17th, 2017
I play Queen Marchesa, U/B Sygg and Karlov. I haven’t lost to Vial/Kraum or Vial/Reyhan once.
Maybe Vial Smasher isn’t the problem, maybe the problem is people insist on playing Titania, Geist and Prossh in a format that does no longer fear them. Just because some website’s numbers claim they’re « the best ».
B-man
janvier 17th, 2017
Not banning Vial Smasher the Fierce is a big mistake. Which will cause that duel commander will be boring and monotonous format, at whose end the Vial Smasher probably win.
1st problem is, that Vial Smasher was developer specially for multiplayer (against more opponents and also against more life), not for duels.
2nd problem: Partner ability spoils the beautiful flavour, that each deck/player has its own unique Commander.
3rd problem: Partner ability is unfair card-advantage against unpartner decks. For each game about +2 card.
This combination causes we have 2 options now: A) Play Vial Smasher to be in the tournaments on the top. B) Play other Commanders (in monotonous Vial metagame) and finish in diameter. Both I don´t like.
IMHO: This is failure of rules committee – maybe they were scared that every next ban brings wrath on them. But inactivity isn´t a good solution too. I´am very sad.
Bendoq
janvier 17th, 2017
Ironically, the only reason Vial Smasher wasn’t even MORE dominant in recent tournament results is that people expected it to be banned and thus didn’t want to invest into building the deck. Now it’ll run rampant like never before – if, that is, people are actually still playing this format.
Spencer
janvier 17th, 2017
@Xcver, on Cockatrice, (from personal experience at least) the statistics aren’t that bad. But there are definitely a lot of Partner decks with/without Vial Smasher.
Cockatrice Meta (which nobody probably cares about):
Mono-Green: ~ <10% (with a sharp decline in Titania since 20hp was announced; most decks are now Selvala)
Partner: 35-40% (Vial Smasher is in ~70% of these decks)
Mono-Red: 10-15%
Control: 20% (Geist, Narset, Breya)
Everything else (combo/jank): <15%
Like I said, though, this is all based on personal experience. I haven't actually looked at the statistics because Cockatrice doesn't have the kind of software for that information.
Xcver
janvier 17th, 2017
@Spencer that means vial smasher is even almost 30% on Cockatrice (which indeed is not saying a lot)
Btw the rules Page on this Site still states 30 starting life etc.
Xveg
janvier 17th, 2017
There’s always highlandermagic.info rules. I’ve started to think that maybe having a commander in a duel format is beyond repairing, and something that should’ve been left to multiplayer only.
Bendoq
janvier 17th, 2017
@Spencer Fits my sample data.
57 matches played, from 12/04 to 01/16
Vial Partner – 18
Titania – 8
Geist – 7
Zurgo Red – 5
Grand Arbiter – 3
Selvala Green – 2
Kozilek – 2
Baral – 2
Akiri Bruse Partner – 2
Others – 8
Brandon_Me
janvier 18th, 2017
Why not just kill Vial Smasher?
Vial Doesn’t do anything when she comes down, kill her and now she costs 5.
It drives me nuts when people don’t run proper removal while complaining about an easy to stop creature.
But with so many people on the Titania train I guess it makes sense that they are unprepared.
Tyneic
janvier 19th, 2017
@Brandon_Me
You don’t always have removal and a grixis control deck does run counters and stuff. A turn two Vial Smasher with a force as backup is not rare and does hit you for five, unless you got instant removal in his turn. Also schoals hurt, even in response to a removal. Unless you remove Vial Smasher (She? Really? It does have a beard, doesn’t it?) the turn s/he comes down, you’ll be in for X free damage, where X can be anything from a sickening shoal, a misdirection, Force of Will, Commandeer or basically anything you can pitch in for free.
How often have you played against a proper Vial Smasher deck? Because I’ve theorycrafted a ton against it and the only thing that seems to have a decent winrate is Thalia Hatebears. Everything else needs either him to have a bad draw or you to have THE perfect draw.
Also Partner allows your opponent to play his / her commander a lot more than usual. Having two commanders which both present a pretty big threat (Vial / Kraum) and asking « why don’t you just remove them? » seems pretty unreasonable. You can’t have infinite removal while you’re still keeping lands, cycling, comboes for your own commander or similar stuff AND a wincondition outside of your commander.
I know, Vial Smasher doesn’t seem that strong with the theoretical infinite removal on your hand, but in practice, you won’t have 3 spotremovals by turn 5, every game. And even if you, even if your whole deck is built of instant spotremovals, you’ll simply lose against one of the Titanias or Zurgos out there. You’re planning on winning a tournament, not on countering a single deck after all.
Bendoq
janvier 19th, 2017
@Brandon_me
The problem is that Vial decks are control decks – they are full to the brim with reactive cards that disrupt you and, while Vial is out, ALSO kill you for free. They don’t even need to run anything but answers/cantrips because they get their win condition tacked on for free.
What that means is that Vial can just relax and control the game, forcing the opponent into the position of either developing themselves and then not having the answer for Vial ready, or keeping open the answer for Vial and thus falling back in development and giving the edge to the control deck. It’s a lose-lose scenario. Heck, even in tempo Vial often wins because of all the pitch-spells.
Add to that the fact that Vial can just randomly kill you in two turns, and you have a deck that is control, aggro, AND combo all in one – and all based off of a single card that you always draw.
Vial is just not a card you want in this format. Yes it’s not like it’s a 90% MU against everything or anything like that, but it’s oppressive, over-represented, and involves a mechanic it was never designed for (1v1 with a multiplayer mechanic). If that doesn’t call for a ban I don’t know what does.
Rith
janvier 20th, 2017
Why does it say here that duel commanders rules starts with 20 health when every single rules summary on your website states that players start with 30 health?
The rules summary on your sidebar says 30 health. If you go to Resources and « One-Page Rules Summary » it says 30 health.
Your websites rules sections are woefully inadequate for anyone wanting to try it out, as every section of the website has different rules
coa
janvier 22nd, 2017
Thank you for bring an end to duel commander, good job.
😀 god bless leviathan.
Raizen
janvier 23rd, 2017
The format is narrowing to Breya, Zurgo, Vial and Geist… I’m not happy to what it has become, some random decks appear sometimes, but the gap between the tier 1 and other decks are immense, today’s tier one are Vial, Geist, Zurgo, Breya and Titania.
I tried to play other decks with 20LP, but really, I don’t know who here is playing a different deck, but it looks like you are playing one game, and he is playing another, which at the end, I find myself needing to play one of these decks on tournaments or else I can’t keep up with the game, and I think many here swapped to those decks for the exact same reason.
I know I always criticize how the format is, but it is getting really unatractive to play, I’m not excited when I try to deckbuild anymore, because I can’t keep the pace with a homebrew deck against Zurgo for example, with 30LP I got top8 on both days of the GP here with a homebrewed deck, now I can’t see that happening unless I actually play one of the tier 1 decks, or get extremely lucky with god hands.
On one game I reanimated a Sheoldred on turn 2 against Zurgo, I was on the draw, if with 20LP I did the same today… I would propably lose.
Really hope the Leviathan format takes over this one, this format has been destroyed by you guys, the format exists because of the players, and not the other way around. If you guys were the ones that separated to create a different format, almost no one would follow you guys, you exist today because in the past the format was a good one, and only lives because it takes so much time to a new format take your place.
Burzun
janvier 29th, 2017
Vial is not the problem. He is a strong Rakdos commander. He, or others, become broken and apressive when they have a partner. With a good hand you can deal with one oposing commander, but the game become unfair when you have to deal (alone… not in a multiplayer table) with two.
Ban partner. Partner is not a mechanic meant to be played in a 1: 1 match.
WotC don’t care for 1:1 commander. So you have the responsability to care.
Bendoq
janvier 30th, 2017
@Burzun
Strongly disagree. Partner is an interesting mechanic that adds a lot of new perspectives, such as rationing your removal to make sure you tax the right commander, and so on. Partner by itself is not a problem at all and the decks that use it fairly are fun and interesting to play with as well as against.
Vial really IS the problem. In fact, the Partner mechanic in most Vial decks is largely there simply to enable more colors. While of course you do regularly cast the other commander as well, the deck would still be bonkers if you could never cast the other commander and simply got its colors.
Also, Vial Smasher alone is still a problem, as it essentially turns into a burn deck with even more inevitability. The only reason that isn’t played right now is that Vial Partner is just so much better, but Vial would remain ridiculous even without Partner – all that such a rules change would do is remove actually interesting decks from the format, while keeping around the main problem card (Vial).
Vial just has to go, period. It was never meant to be played in 1v1, let alone 1v1 with 20 life. The card just breaks open all the pitch-spells that are already insane tempo value, and having a control deck that just randomly burns you from 20 to 0 in two turns is simply not acceptable. No control deck should have the backup plan of « oh I’ll just race aggro, no problem ».
Burzun
janvier 30th, 2017
@Bendoq
Good arguments. However, I still think that partner was not meant to be played in a 1:1 environment.
A deck with a solo commander will always be in disavantage against a 2 commanders deck. One less card in your « hand ». Perio. Thst difference would be diluted in a table.
Should partners deck start with on less card in their starting hand? Maybe… but, I do dislike that many exceptions.
Agree that Vial is broken though. I would give it a try as an agro only. Not the agro/control you’ve mentioned… which is more than broken.
Thank you for the comment!
Bendoq
janvier 31st, 2017
@Burzun
The inherent power of Partner is offset by the fact that (aside from Vial) the commanders with Partner are all fairly mediocre on their own. None of them is particularly powerful, and certainly not on the level of other build-around commanders like Breya or Titania.
Yes, Partner means it’s harder to remove your 3/3s for 3, but then again… they’re only 3/3s for 3 and little else. They NEED the safeguard of Partner easing the tax in order to function as a deck at all. NONE of the Partner commanders would be playable in ANY way without Partner (again, except Vial).
If your choice is ban Partner and remove 15 commanders and several established decks… or ban Vial and keep 14 commanders and those decks… I think the choice should be clear.
Burzun
février 1st, 2017
@Bendoq
True.
Something must be done by the committee thought.
Be it ban partner or vial.
Vial would keep some diversity (not that many partner decks in mtg8 without vial…) partner would take us to the pre-commander 16 meta + breya.
The meta looks awfull as it is.
spencer
février 13th, 2017
I really do think the partner mechanic needs to go. There’s so many Vial/Kraum and Reyhan/Bruse decks rampant. Or just ban those four commanders.
Single target removal is a joke versus these decks. Breya is also strong and probably needs to go.
Luc
février 27th, 2017
Commander is dead for months in my city. This format Will decline continually, until complete oblivion…
Colgate
mars 5th, 2017
They should unban humility. Humility would give some chance to fight against all these creature decks.
Duke
mars 8th, 2017
Really, are guys playing Vial and Partner mechanic for the decline of the format?
Guys, really that makes no sense at all, just be analytc please.
The true fact is, is u ban Vial or the Partner Mechanic the format is dead.
Why u ask me?
Simple, the meta right now is Vial/Kraun, Geist, Zurgo and Titania. (Breya running to get there)
If u ban Vial or Partner, the meta WILL BE even smaller, it’ll come to Zurgo, Geist and Titania.
REALLY, REALLY GUYS ? Banning Vial/Partner is not the solution, it’s going to make the format even worse. Of course he’s strong, but i saw too Many complete Vial decks loosing to geists and Anafenzas reanimate (yes, and i saw it a lot last month).
I’m not even a Vial player, i have a complete Narset deck, wich is shitows on this meta, but that’s ok. The thing is, and i repeat, banning is not the solution, it’s only going to make the format about Zurgos and Geists.
My opinion, unbuns from a few cards can make the format more deverse right now, os just go back to 30HP and see what happens.
Anyway, please, stop the bans, try to analyse more deeply the entire format, the 20HP broke the format, and banning VIAL or Partner Mechanic is going to kill Commander for good.
Duke
mars 8th, 2017
Gosh, sorry for the misstyps, i’m drunk, but that’s my real opinion (even when i’m not drunk lol).
François-Olivier Guay
mars 8th, 2017
Hi,
Due to your despotic irrationnal and obscure rulings, yoi destroyed all 1v1 commander tournaments in Montreal, Quebec. Theres not a single tournament left and all local game stores have turned to Frontier.
RIP 30 life without frenetic bans commander 1v1.
TOTO
mars 10th, 2017
The only way to make partner’s a fair afair is to include to the command zone the rule about color identity . It will maintain the possibility to run strong partner decks (Boros, Simic and Izzet partners are strong couples) and re-open the metagame to some forgotten glories such as Jenara, Narset, Brago, saskia. Then only Breya will be to outcast.
Bendoq
mars 12th, 2017
@Duke While I don’t necessarily disagree with all of what you are trying to say, I feel it must be pointed out that you seem to have a simplistic understanding of how bannings affect a format.
Let’s say you have a metagame of Decks 1, 2, 3, and 4. You decide that Deck 1 is too powerful for whatever reason, and oppressive on the metagame. You ban it. What happens then, assuming you made a smart ban, is NOT usually that the metagame is now Deck 2, 3, and 4. INSTEAD, the metagame is now (again, ideally) Deck 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7. Decks 5/6/7 were there before, but because they had no chance against Deck 1, or because people decided to play Deck 1 instead of anything else because it’s so good, they were pushed out of the metagame. Post-ban, they have a chance to get back in.
I’m not saying this is automatically what happens, but this is the ideal scenario. It’s largely WHY you ban cards, particularly cards that aren’t busted in a way that suddenly there is ONLY ONE deck (which also happens, but very rarely). Certain cards tend to push entire decks out of the meta with their presence, and bans are meant to correct that. They INCREASE diversity even though they remove cards from the pool.
None of the decks currently in the meta are anywhere close to problematic the way Vial is. It has game against EVERYTHING, it’s literally always the best choice in almost any metagame. It has no (viable) hard counter. It plays all aspects of the game on demand (combo/control/aggro). It does too much too easily and in too many different ways. Vial HAS to go.
Whether or not something else ALSO has to go is another question.
Cainsson
mars 21st, 2017
After nearly two months of weekly 20+ player tournaments. I believe if Vial and Breya are banned, Geist has to be nerfed toroughly or we’ll have a 1-deck format.
Vial and Breya have a super notorious weakness each, for Vial it’s that pitcher cards are card disadvantage and terrible when played off-tempo, for Breya it’s being 4color and dependant on a card type everyone but mono-black has plethora of hate for.
Geist has no weaknesses, beating it consistently requires playing cards that are suboptimal in every other match and that not every color has access to: edicts and wipes.
Tyneic
mars 23rd, 2017
@Cainsson
Right, wipes are awful in every other match. Playing wipes against Titania is so bad.
Geist is very beatable by a single silly thing that exists in MTG since the very dawn of time: A blocker with 2 power. The only scary thing about Geist decks is the pure control part behind its aggro power. A geist deck is basically a control deck that still beats you down as fast as any aggro deck, basically what Vial Smasher is, but weaker. I agree, Geist is seen too much in Duel Commander, but he’s not nearly as strong as Vial Smasher.
P
mars 27th, 2017
Man i played french edh last weekend and I can confirm that this format is not better than before. This 20 HP Thing and the 90% Partner Commanders realy fuck up that format. We just play Classic EDH this weekend. Fuck that shit.
Hector
mars 29th, 2017
I think, 20hp’s commander is a very different format. Is a new, other format. This format need to start with a new banlist, maybe a clear banlist. Allow the banned commanders, and view what happens.
edric,derevi,oloro and the other guys maybe worthy opponents for Vial and his mates.
Don’t ban ton of cards again and again. The 20 hp initation is good, so maybe can be official the format soon.
Shane Holmes
avril 5th, 2017
I think 20HP with Vial running rampant is another problem, in and of itself.
Going back to 30HP and keeping Vial as a partner commander/solo commander might mitigate the whole « Vial-only meta ».
On the other hand, staying at 20HP and banning Vial is the other sure-fire solution. That obviously will take a huge toll on the masses of people who have invested into a Vial deck.
Long story short, 30HP was a smooth, fast life total. Changing to 20 rushes the whole format and creates so many more useless commanders for DC.
Shane Holmes
avril 5th, 2017
Reading more of the comments, going back to 30HP seems like a no brainer.
Doing so opens the meta back to more possible competitive commanders, and adds diversity in the tier 1-2 lists, which some of those could compete against Vial.
I agree with the few here, that Vial/partners really aren’t the main problem. It’s the lack of diversity in the format that 20HP stresses.
Please go back to 30HP. Ban and unban some cards if that helps the format, but if I’m playing an aggro-based, 20HP format I may as well go freaking play Standard.
Jackson
avril 18th, 2017
I think that something definitely does have to change based on the data since this update. I know our next update is happening soon and I am anxiously seeing what you all have decided on. I believe this is a pivoral moment in the duel commander format’s history. I think this next update will either revive or irreversibly destroy this format. The change to 20HP combined with the partner commanders have warped the format to the point where combo decks are all but completely dead (and as much as people hate combo, it deserves some place), control struggles to maintain consistent card advantage over their aggro brethren and aggro is oppressive. This format has WAY flesh diversity in a 20HP world with partner commanders than the 30HP world ever did.
Leave a comment